Designing Life Beyond the Nine to Five | Grow With Kepo Ep. 22

What if your definition of success was never yours to begin with?

In this powerful conversation on Grow With Kepo, Adun Okupe shares her radical journey of walking away from a secure 9-to-5 to create a purpose-aligned life in the tourism industry. From a career crisis during the 2008 credit crunch to battling serious illness and learning to walk again, Adun reveals how she rebuilt her life and her business - with clarity, intention, and courage. If you’ve ever felt trapped by expectations or unsure how to pivot boldly, this episode is for you.

We go deep into abundance mindset, redefining ambition, and the strength it takes to build your own blueprint. Hosted by Kepo, this is a must-listen for high achievers ready to realign.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
• “You’re not lazy. You’re just misaligned.”
• Writing down your dream life can be the scariest, most powerful first step
• Why a career coach changed everything for Adun
• Your legacy is not your LLC - it’s how you make people feel
• There is no shame in taking detours, but focus is a superpower
• You don’t need a huge business to live a meaningful life
• How COVID and long illness became a turning point
• Working on your business ≠ living your dream life
• Boutique, intentional business design as a radical act
• You can live expansively without chasing endless “more”

BEST MOMENTS:”
00:05:17. “She asked me to write what I wanted for the career of my dreams.”
00:08:04. “I got quite ill, had to withdraw, had to learn how to read, write and walk again.”
00:12:14. “I always think I have a coach for nutrition, skin, fashion, business, leadership.”
00:15:24. “So you signed up for a PhD, and then life happened. What happened after that?”
00:20:21. “My boss really helped me to understand tourism from a global perspective.”
00:31:44. “You have to take your goods to the marketplace.”
00:40:27. “I made a decision that we would never be more than five people within the business.”
00:49:14. “My legacy is not the business. My legacy is what I’m doing right now.”

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Transcript

0:30

I have to thank my mom and my brother. I think they always had confidence and faith in me. There was confidence at home to move forward even though everyone was like, what are you doing? Study the PhD. Loved it. Got quite ill. Had to withdraw. Had to learn how to read writes and walk again. But it was just a sense of there was light at the end of the tunnel. Because I knew that this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I was just so convinced. Here is something you need to hear. You're not lazy. You're just misaligned. I'm careful. I help high performers get unstuck by taking bold, aligned action. And this is grow with Keppel, where we speak with influential trailblazers who've made their mark and found the clarity that changed their lives. This is where we get clear, realign, and move toward a life that actually feels like yours. Welcome to the show. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to grow with Keppel. Today is absolutely special because of the special guests that we have today. I do allow occupy is an amazing human being because she decided to create her own rules. You all. She was in the 9 to 5 and realized that you know what? Her mission. Her vision could not fit in the 9 to 5 life, and her story is one to reckon with. It's something that you all can glean from. I don't care what stage you're at right now, whether you're thinking about, oh, I think I'm made for something bigger than this, or I'm ready to make the leap. This is something that you want to lean into and just listen. Without further ado, I welcome to the show. I do a lot. Okay. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Hi, Adam. Hello. Thank you. Nice to be here. Awesome. So happy to have you here. Because I know you would do what you do the best justice. Can you tell us what it is you do? Right. Okay, so I, I do like what said. And I run red clay, which is a tourism advisory practice. So what we do is we do tourism consultancy work, particularly focused on Africa. Although we have experience in other parts of the world. And our focus is on tourism, master plans, feasibility studies, hotel feasibility studies, strategy and tourism urban planning. So when you have like a city that wants to think about leisure for its residents and also for visitors, how do you really think about that and plan for that? So that's that's what keeps me busy. Wow. That I think honestly, that is so cool. And what makes it so cool is this does sound like something that someone can just sit down and say, what is it that I want to do? Oh, let me go Google it. And then you just say, oh, that's the job title tourism advisory, you know, consultancy. It sounds like, you know, something that you basically curated, right? It's just it just sounds really, really cool. Is that something that you can't go on LinkedIn and go looking for that? So tell us maybe from the top from the beginning about your journey, like how did you land in this niche on this industry? You know, sometimes when I think about what I do right, and I'm always trying to say, okay, I want to mirror, I want to learn from certain people. It's been quite challenging to say, okay, who are those that I can learn from? Because we've almost I mean, people do advice on tourism and people are working in the tourism industry, but the way that we work in the tourism industry is like we've almost I think I've written everything, my own job description and I've also written the job description for Right Thing. And so why did I how did I make this leap to be honest, when I was at uni, I'm an economist and I always wanted to do further like research and always wanted to know more behind the meaning of things. And I used to working in London. I used to do, like you said, a 9 to 5. And I was constantly asking them, can we do things in a different way? Can we be a bit more innovative? Can we do all of that? The like? I think they were like, I don't know, I think you need to be in the strategy department because you know what we do, we've always done it. We we've done it. So if you want to do these things like this, you need to bring the strategy department. But then I looked at like the senior colleagues, the directors, the partners, and I didn't like the life they were living. It just felt very I mean, this is quite a long time ago. This is around 22,007, 2008. And it felt like life was about work. And I thought that there must be more to life than work. And so, incidentally, I spoke to a current coach, right. Because I was very confused and I wasn't sure how to move on to I didn't even know what to do because everyone was telling me how lucky I was to be doing this role, and how fortunate I was to have a job in the credit crunch. So can you imagine, like, is the credit crunch is happening and you're like, oh no, this is what I want to do. And speaking to the carers could really help to reflect on the kind of life I wanted. And she really just basically gave me power and it was very easy, was basically asked me to write what I wanted for the career of my dreams. And I was afraid. I was afraid to write it on paper. I she's like, it's only paper life. You can tell me, oh, I'll never forget. And I was like, gosh, it's true. Why am I so scared to even dream on paper? Can you imagine? So I wrote it and I was I started crying, I was so emotional. And then I looked at it and then I. Then I gave it to her and she's like, so what are you doing here? Like where you are? It's so different for what you want to do. Can you imagine? And I was like, yes, I feel it because I felt very unwell. I started feeling unwell, like my body was reacting to what I was doing and it was great work, like I would never, you know, I would always go look back on my initial three, four years working, in corporate London with gratitude because I learned a lot of the systems and structures that I've brought into readily. But that conversation, with Gillian really helped me to sort of pluck the next phase of my life. And I was able to then, because before that, for the last four years, I'd always be writing, I want to do a PhD, but I would just never do anything about it. So I was like, okay, you know what? I need to do something about it. So the journey was then looking for a PhD and then looking for a master's because I was like, oh my goodness, I've been out of academia for quite a while, so maybe if I did a master's, I'll see if I wanted to see. I'm still hedging. Like I was like, I'm not sure I'm ready to go to the now. Yeah. And I remember speaking to someone and they're like, no, I don't like if you have a first class, you can go to a PhD immediately. I was like, no, I think I need to just do a master's just to make sure. So I did my master's in development studies just to see that, okay, within this realm of tourism, I always also white tourism. I like traveling, I like I said, I'm an economist. I used to subscribe to for The Economist. And then Dubai was booming in terms of its tourism. And I was like, gosh, Dubai. The UAE has a lot of, you know, they have been all producing economy, but they're really looking at diversifying the economy. How about we can do the same in Nigeria? And then at the time cross River with Donald Duck at the time was a governor. They were doing things in tourism. So it just felt like there was space for me. I didn't know what the space would be, but I knew there was space for me. I said, was there any question of where to do the PhD? And, you know, like, do you have to go to the top university? You know, they've given you space like, no, I need to find the best university for for what I want to do. I was like, I dream because I remember my colleagues say I do credit crunch. You know, you only work permits. You want to quit your job. Like, are you okay? Looking back now, I don't know if I was okay, but I have to thank my mom and my brother. I think they always had confidence and faith in me. And so that really just gave me the confidence. So there was confidence at home to move forward even though everyone was like, what are you doing? And so studied the PhD, loved it, got quite ill, had to withdraw, had to learn how to read, write and walk again. And but it was just a sense of there was light at the end of the tunnel, because I knew that this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I was just so convinced. So I think that's kind of the intro. Wow. Okay, you you hit on so many things already. The very first one is you've been afraid to write out your dream career, to just write it on paper. What were you afraid of? So this was 2008. This is how many years ago, almost 20 years ago, I was afraid of voicing the dream that I knew was not the path that I'd wanted. At the time. People had been telling me, oh, you make a partner before 30, you can do anything. You can do anything you want in the world. And that just wasn't the path that I wanted. You can be a yes. You want to be a banker? I just knew that corporate life. So it was just that sense of disappointing everybody. But also, I guess year on of who are you to see work is not for you? Because I remember when I was doing when I was studying my first day at work, I remember telling my mom, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life before I retire. And she's like, yes. I was like, no, this, this, this, this, this doesn't make sense. I remember that was my first week at work. I was like, nah, nah, this cannot be the rest of my life. So I think there was that conviction already, but it was marching conviction with action. That was what I was afraid of because I was like, once I saw it. I guess what you write on paper, you visualize it, it's clear. Then it's like, what are you going to do about it? So the responsibility becomes yours because you've articulated it almost to yourself, right? Yeah, exactly. And but you know something? A lot of people don't move beyond writing it down. So it still took a lot of courage for you to take action. But the other thing that I heard you say is that you you spoke with a coach, you worked with a coach, and that gave that hope to you to get more clarity. And that is something that I keep yelling at the top of my lungs throughout all my channels. Everybody listen. If you're at this crossroads, get a coach. I am not even. This is not even a shameless plug. This is a prideful plug. Hire me if you're in that career transition thing, the coach will help you see your blind spots. And that is. It takes a lot of courage and I commend you for doing that. And not only, you know, having the courage to actually write it down and but but also to actually follow through with action despite what everybody else around you was telling you like your crazy is the credit crunch. You are crazy though. I mean, can we talk about that? You are crazy. So because they, you know, another person might think, you know, is the credit crunch, like they said, I should be grateful for this job. People are getting laid off, you know, instead, I'm at this job, I, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a good enough job. You know, I'm learning a lot. And then I now want to quote unquote, throw everything away for something that I don't even know what it's going to look like it, you know, so tell us, like, can you tell us what what was going through your mind when you went against the grain? Do you remember your thought process, like when you were just like, no, I'm doing this thing. Yes. And I think, I mean, I guess you do know I spoke to a coach, right? When we said we should speak. So it's also quite an you know, it's an interesting plug, I guess, for coaching because I would always tell people that that was the critical incident that helped me. And I will not plug in capital alone, but I would always, you know, every time I have to make decisions or every time I have coaches that I work with. I just I always think I have coach for nutrition, skin, fashion, business, leadership, clarity just because it really helps to have a sounding board that is, you know, that is quite experienced. So I would say if you ask me, my one of my superpowers or what is what is a superpower behind a lot of the things that I do, I would say it's actually been able to draw on coaches. So because of that experience, I always use a coach to get to the next level of what I want to get to. I look back now and I'm like, I guess I just knew that, you know? And sometimes you just know that it's either we move forward or we're going to die here. That was it. I remember talking to a friend of mine and I will see what who wasn't happy in the work she was doing. So a few of us were having those conversations, and I knew that I wasn't going to go into the partying or drinking or, you know, just kind of trying to avoid the unhappiness. Like I said, it's not a but it was a top organization, great organization to work for, won a lot of hours, have been a great employer. So it wasn't about them. It was just about not me. Like, you know, a square peg not being able to fit in a round hole. But incidentally, I was also doing very well. I was always exceptional. Like I got great feedback, right? Everyone. I said I was going to leave. You were like, okay, we'll promote you with transfer you. What do you want to do? So I think all it was was I was just very clear that I wanted to work with my mind and, and I think at the time as well, perhaps I'd read about, you know, other research. I knew that I didn't want to just lecture, but I'd read about other researchers in other areas that were really trying to push things forward, and I just didn't see how what I was doing in London was going to help me push development in Nigeria on the continent forward. I just couldn't marry the two because I always knew that I needed to go back to Nigeria, right. So that was it. Also, I think those were all the things that were going on at the back of my mind. I, like I said when I spoke to my family, my mum and my brother, they were very supportive. If they weren't supportive then maybe I would have had a it was like, what are you doing? But they were very supportive, like whatever you want to do, we will support you. That, that, that, that was also quite, quite useful and helpful. That goes a long way because when you don't have the support of your loved ones, it just makes it harder. We don't ever need their permission. That's different. But you know, if they are in a situation where, you know, maybe they could support us, maybe even if it's financially or, or at least not, you know, morally moral support and all of that, it really, really goes it might seem a long way. I would rather that than have to do the extra uphill climb of navigating family that that not only they don't understand what I'm doing, but you also don't support. It just makes it harder. But it's not a reason to not do it. But I'm just I'm happy that for you, you had that set up. So you signed up for a PhD, you started doing that and then life happened. What happened after that? How did you how did you get from like in life happened to finally running in business from PhD. You know, let me just say till today, my mom doesn't understand what I do. I remember her, somebody was asking how should I do, you know, so I do does once ask ask it. Sorry, but I feel like. So this is just like, what is this girl doing? What? Just. Just to confirm what you said. Or sometimes it's not even about understanding. It's just having the faith to be there and to hold you. And I would say that's bigger than I mean, also, they supported me financially. So yes, I was supporting myself as well. But there was support in the sense that at least I knew that if push comes to shove, I would. I was going to be okay. Now the PhD, the PhD started, and then I got I don't even know what it is, but it's just in so many different diagnosis because at the time they were unsure, but they thought it was like a stroke. And so and I won't ever forget because my friend Ahmed. Well, look, is your cousin. She's my very good friend. I remember she was in the hospital every day because I had to withdraw and had to learn how to walk, how to talk, how to read. And it was almost like. And then at that time I was like, how many visa and do you have with the test that is affecting your you? And that's where you've got this thick? I was like, mommy, it's not the PhD. That's just like I it's sure. Honestly, looking back now, I don't know where this thing came from. I really don't because even at the time, I had to come back to that and you had to just see you daily because I was just not able to do anything. But also I was very supported by even my professors. And so I would also say that to people listening, it's good to be good at what you do, so that when you do have issues, people know that. It's not that you're making excuses, they actually know that you're like, they know that this person is a stand up person. This person is efficient. This person is reliable. This person is serious. So that when you tell them X is going to happen, they can make allowances for you. So they made allowances or like we're going to hold your spot, take as long as you need. When you're ready to get back let us know. And also just you can just having that confidence. So there was no pressure to go back because I was like, goodness, what did they say. We can't you can't continue this. What will I do not not go to the person in Oxford that I said I'm not coming because I wish so sorry that please come back and think like I was just like, you know, I didn't have to deal with that. I think at that time, as well, I think I would say that reading a lot, reading about people's stories, people's experiences. I was reading about people with disabilities because at the time I was actually using crutches and I was I came to them during a wheelchair. Yeah. My mum used to read to me every day on like stroke recovery patients, etc. etc. just as a way to keep my spirit up. I just remember this whenever my mum annoys me so that I remember that she was so supportive because she was really there at the time. But what I'm trying to say was, even when we're trying to make adaptations to like my living environment and to what I could do in the future, there was just no pressure to say, you have to be episode. It was always whatever you want to do. If you can't work anymore, that's fine. You're going to still have a good life. So there was no you have to earn money. So it was nice to be able to have that comfort, to see life can continue. Maybe not the trajectory that I want. Anybody can continue. And I think I because I could listen to audiobooks, I would never forget. I spent it that time listening to The Girl in the Dragon Tattoo, the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series, because I couldn't read what happened. The time to think and reflect does something to strengthen, strengthen the mind. And I would always tell people that whatever it is you're doing in life, having time to distill, to recalibrate, to question what you're doing helps you to constantly find your center. Because I would say that there's so much noise around us that it's easy to, to to accept or take on someone else's vision as your vision. So people kept saying, and what can you do? I'm like, do I go back to my PhD? And and I did go back and I did finish and I finished even in record time. Right? I finished in like record time, which again, I'm thankful for. But after that I was like I said, I consultant in nine years, I should be flown to Nigeria or gone out of Tanzania. Different countries to consult in tourism. And what it was was I was consulting on hospitality. And then at the time, because I studied, working with the World Travel and Tourism Council. So I first of all did it as an internship, unpaid, because I wanted to understand what was happening in the world of tourism. And my boss at the time was one of those that had told me that they would always hire from a university that was specialized in tourism, then a university that was just a top university. So it was about a level you really want to be working with subject, you know, really subject matter experts. Now, my project was going to be at the other university, was a subject matter expert in development studies. Right. Is his lit now or blessed memory. But he was very, very helpful, very supportive throughout. Even when I said, okay, I'm not coming anymore, he was still very supportive. And I will say that Olivia really, really helped me. This was my boss, who is still a friend, who really helped me to understand tourism from a global perspective. So after I did the internship with them for a month, I was like, okay, I'm done by and they're like, no, no, no, we like you will retain you. We need you to do this. So I was doing that as well as my PhD. So that gave me practical experience into what the global tourism issues were around the world, which helped me to also refine the areas I was thinking about working. And because my PhD was in tourism leadership. So tourism strategy, you know, I've always had that mind of strategic mind. It was nice to be able to combine my experience as an economist, behavioral economist, development studies and now with tourism. And then I was still consulting, and then I did my postdoc in Edinburgh because I had met someone when I was in my name, an enlightened leadership initiative. So I'd always also been thinking that change is to start at the top. Yes, of course, the bottom up is good, but really catalytic change starts at the top. And so all of these forces, I would say, came together like I think things were just coming together serendipitously. And yeah, so I did I finished the PhD and it was like I went to do my postdoc in Edinburgh, was doing knitting projects in different countries on the continent. So also, again, I knew I wanted to come back to Africa, to Nigeria. And so that gave me exposure into the world of business because we were working on business, right? Because it was a business school. And then, one of my profs at the time saw me. I used to facilitate sessions where we used to have executives from, from from Africa, from Nigeria at the time come to Edinburgh for workshops. And so we have ever thought about coming to Nigeria to contribute. And I was like, yes, I, I've always thought about it. And so we started working on how I was going to move back. So I moved back to Nigeria to work with Lagos Business School to do work within the sustainability, space. But that was I would say that that was great in terms of coming back to Nigeria. I was still consulting in hospitality, so it was great. I'll be honest with you, because of the people that are going to listen to this, because it's all well and good to see. Everything went beautifully and rosy and it was all fantastic. No, I think it was a distraction and I think it was a distraction, because I didn't have enough faith in myself that I was able to build something in tourism by myself. I didn't have enough faith. So I worked with labs as an adjunct faculty, did my NYC there were also consultants I was doing. I was went to has life until again with reflections saying we need to thinking about this isn't where I want to be. And again, not because I still speak to my dean, I still speak to my for my process. Not because of anything. It's also just, again, if you know you're going to not stand. So this is this, you know, you're going from Lagos-Ibadan advances is patching. I'm going to tell to the platinum because I usually remember that it is vital you're going to. Right. You should always remember where you're going because don't just be eating that rice and fish and you're saying right here. So I have to fix a crutch again just to help with that move, with that transition, because I knew that I had worked here for eight years. I had already said directly I was still also consulting for another consultancy, hospitality consulting practice. So now consulting for regularly consulting for breakfast and doing labs. So many hats. I it's like you can't please everybody. You have to always remember what it is that you want to do and why. And that was hard. I have to say. That was hard. That was hard because I felt like I was going to disappoint people again. But I was very sure about what I needed to do. And by this time, I also spoke to a friend of mine, a very dear friend of mine, who was very, you know, because I had like, you know, this sense of confidence, which was everyone tells you how amazing you are, but sometimes you need to see that amazing. You know that, that you are amazing within, you know, of yourself and in all honesty, I knew that I didn't want to go out work because I remember when I moved to Nigeria, I got offers to work in like charity departments or like consultancy firm to lead a business line for another new company. That was going to, you know, it was always going to always pay to do something oil and gas. And I knew that I didn't want to do that. Well, because Elbaz also straddled the academia. And I was like, oh, I've always wanted to teach, right? It was beautiful. But weren't it in tourism? So is that at all? How are you? What are you doing about doing sustainability, which I also love what helped me move to this level that I'm in now. And I would say that moving has really helped. Or speaking to this, my friend who recommended a book, Rumi The Bridge to the Soul by Rumi. And just reading that book helped me to again sign my center. So I really love arts. I love the arts because I think there are some things that just help you to connect more with the core of your spirit person, right? Your spirit man or woman that isn't necessarily in a business school or isn't necessarily you're not going to necessarily get from anybody but that space to read. So I have that copy as well. Yes, I think so. That was it was just having faith and just also saving I had saved for my consultancy. So it wasn't like I was getting super well-paid at the Academia Academy, was not the love of the teaching and the impact, but I was saving. So I was like, you know what? Even if my business doesn't succeed, I will be fine and my people will be fine, because at the time I had ten team members working for me, and my focus was almost always like, I need to make sure that the people working for me from working with me are okay. And then Covid happened. You covered quite a lot of ground, right? Starting from the fact that you had to learn how to read and write again and walk like even just right there alone, the resilience and what you had to go through and deciding that, you know what? I'm still going back to this PhD, but there was something that you said that I thought I would reiterate, which because I think is such an it's such a great point, make sure that whatever you're doing, you're good at it or you do good work. Right. Because something that is a recurring theme throughout your story is you obviously have great work ethic, regardless of how you feel about the job, whether it is where you see yourself long term or not. And that goes a long way. I can't say that honestly. I cannot say that I've always had a great work ethic, especially when I don't want to be there. It's very, very hard for me to be like the excelling candidate, but for me, I just remember that, okay, your name is on it. So the fact that your name is on it, you do something that you are proud of. But I think that that is such that is such an important point. But then, you know, like when you did your your PhD, you said you started to consult. And how did you even get into that while you were doing your PhD? Is it that did you is that when red clay started and you just are going to be like, hey, I'm, I'm, incumbent's PhD, I can help you with this cycle. Tell us how you actually did that. How did you get consulting gigs? I had come back from being unwell and I had gone back to uni. Right. This is my prof at the time was like, oh, there was an alumni that had it was coming to visit to visit sorry for something who was also based in Nigeria. He he is an English person, an Englishman, but he he'd lived in India for a while. It's like, I think you guys should have coffee. So he's like, are you down to have coffee? I was like, sure. So I came from London. I lived in London at the time, went to sorry, let's have coffee with this person. So it wasn't like I was, I think was just coffee and I was just intrigued to know more about tourism. And he's he had told him that this is one of his this is his best student. I think that is he needs to meet his best student. So that's how I met Trevor. Trevor, who runs W hospitality, incidentally. So I've been working with Trevor. I'm also directly in Trevor's hospitality. I, I was still working together till now. Right. Which is interesting. Sometimes if we get a project I read Clay, I would, you know, he would advise me is more like an advisor because he's worked here for 40 years. But if he also needs someone to do something for, for him, he will invite me. And if I were still working on a project as we speak. So it's a long, long term relationship. So that's how that happened. And Olivia, also my, my WTC boss, was actually the person who coached me on how to start work as a consultant because I never worked as a consultant in tourism. I'd worked as a consultant for like, you know, in infrastructure, government and health care projects before. So I've always just had people that I guess I reported to that I've always just and I don't think they did it like, oh, Adam, Trevor is going to give you a job. It was more they should meet and then from there the opportunities came and I did the work. And I always continue to do the work well. So this this is kind of how how that happened. So once I started consulting with him, that's how I started being a consultant. And then that's how I've been the once I've been went to Edinburgh, that's when I registered red clay. And then I started getting projects and ready to also do on for tourism. And it also just show something about you have to take your goods to the marketplace. No one is going to come to your house to buy something from you. Do you have to be on the marketplace? I mean, it can be a virtual marketplace, but you can't keep it in your head. Oh my gosh, I am so glad you said that because everyone listening or watching, if that is all you take from this, take it because people just get stuck in their heads and get stuck in planning mode and researching. You have to take it to the market. People need to actually know that, hey, I'm good at this, and I and this is the this is your problem and this is how I can help you solve that problem. And oh my gosh, I like that is golden. Right? There's like you need to take it to the market I love it. That's really short somewhere. So so you took us to the market and you became red clay, but then you also did something which I think is remarkable is you studied, you know, you took an unpaid internship because you wanted to just get your hands dirty and, and just get in there. And that gave you a lot of exposure. That's another thing that I drew out of that was like a lot of people, they would package themselves and just immediately just want to hit the big bang immediately. And your journey has been like this. You know, it's been up and down. Sometimes is free, sometimes it's paid, sometimes it's serendipitous. You know, the somebody introduces to someone and sometimes it's you saying, hey, I can do this right? And I think that is something that is noteworthy, like the fact that you are willing to do that. And that is something that a lot of people in this situation where they are in transition or they're thinking of doing something, need to understand, he needs to be okay with literally earning your stripes because that's what you did. You earned your stripes and you learned a lot and I gave you more exposure. The other thing that I think is so cool and that is why, for those of you that suffer from this sunk cost fallacy, like, oh, I've put in so much in this career already, I can't afford to now pivot and start again. You can tell from Adam's story that every single thing has kind of been woven together, so that she is running what she's running now. Nothing has been lost. Even if you are working at a job where it's a factory and you're producing buttons, you are learning something there, you learn something there. Everything is happening for us. It's not happening to us. If if we can just have that mindset. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I feel like that's part of what was going on with you as well, that you just know that, hey, whatever it is, I will land on my two feet and hey, this was great, but thank you for these skills. But this is not where I want to go. But I want to take this great skills and I'm going to apply them here. Yes, I think I think that that was it. And also knowing that I have so many skills that are transferable in so many ways. So I was also like, if this tourism pathway does not work within the many I can teach, I can lecture, I can consult, I can write, I can, I can work in a shop like I was ready to do anything in terms of I knew that if she has the fun, I could survive. And also I really believe and this is something I studied as well. I believe in an abundance mindset. I look at the trees, the birds, and I'm like, there's so much abundance around us, so they will always be work for me. Like, I just know that I kind of be born in this world and there will be something for me to do, like there will always be. So why not try to carve something that I can do and then I believe in this Japanese philosophy of ikigai, that you know, where your purpose meets your passion, meets your skill challenge with, you know, find what that is. That said, I'm also open to you know, I'm already thinking that, okay, tourism is under lockdown for the most part. I want to learn other things. I'm learning Ichiban. I'm thinking I want to learn like architecture, photography. I want to let historical architecture. It still comes back to this sense of making life beautiful. And I feel like if more of us, and particularly those of us that are from Nigeria, allow ourselves to really live lives as expansive and as fully as possible, you realize that we're not human doings, we're human beings. And if you are a human being, the most you need to be is be. And if you've been and if you look at all of the world. I like nature a lot, like a niche. I'm looking at the trees outside. You can look at nature around you. You realize that there just being and this whole work ethic of constantly striving for, for I don't know what is actually not the right. I don't believe that that's the right way to live. And so even within the work that we do, it's always very important. And I do work very hard. What is important to make sure that life is full. So making life full, full bodied wine is always nicer than flat a flat soda. Right. So making is a rich experience. Yeah, I love that. I love that you mentioned Towards Abundance expansive. Everyone listening just add that that's your vocabulary, your mental vocabulary. Always living and thinking in abundance and living expansively. The end. All right so I love this. This is actually a great pivot moment because I want to talk about the actual business and your day to day okay. So fast forward you know, you realize, this 9 to 5 is know what I want to do, and now you're doing you basically you like you said, I like what you said. I said you wrote your own your own job description. Tell us the how is that? How is that going? How is that going with the backdrop of you constantly having this idea that, you know what I want to be, I don't just want to be doing I'm striving and be hustling all the time. I want to live abundantly. How is that. Going? Yeah, I would say that at the moment. I mean, what really helps me to also crystallize and I'll just give you a from from when I said I was going to start focusing on my own business, was Covid happening and I got Covid five times. So and then I had long Covid. So all of that just really was another setback. But because I've gone through this setback before, I remember I knew that I would come back at the time I saw my coach and at the time I was like, I was done with Lagos. I knew that I had to leave Lagos. So my office is in Lagos, my team is in Lagos, my my people are in Lagos. But I knew that I was done. So I was like, I want to move out of Nigeria. Then I reflect that again. Reflection is like, no, I don't have a problem with Nigeria. I have a problem with Lagos. Psychically, Lagos wasn't for me anymore, so I was. I moved to Abuja. Abuja didn't quite work out for me because it was very, it's a different mental social environment and so I moved to Ibadan. So I live in Ibadan now. I knew that I wanted a slower pace of life, I wanted to live life more. And the question was, how is that affecting my business? Well, because I had long Covid where I couldn't work for a year, the company was still going. Those things we were doing, we still got a bit of work because as you can imagine, the tourism industry was hugely impacted, like no one was spending money on tourism. But we still got some work, so there was still enough to keep people on the payroll. But by 2021, I started to question if I was working for the people on the payroll, if I was working for myself. So I met another friend who gave me this book that I bought, company of one, and I was like, okay, it's important in the life and the work that we do that you don't leave. And this is another person I follow online, just in Welsh. He runs this thing called I think it's tagline is solopreneur. It's like, don't live in 95 to work on your business and just start working on your business. And then just like, like you've basically just changed. You've just moved. Yeah, basically still doing the same thing. And I was doing that. And again, it was that's it again. So this is all like I never met him before, but I really so I just subscribed for his posts and I liked reading them. And I also started thinking, okay, maybe the life I want is and then my Mike Monson and also Tim Ferriss. So those guys, Tim Ferriss wrote the four hour week, which obviously is not realistic, but it was just that sense of why should work be 40 hours, 50 or 60 hours. So those people helped me to start to define what my work life was going to look like. And I had to design again what that should look like, because I usually just exchange 95 or 90. It's pretty much. And that wasn't what I wanted. Where we are now. And then I'm just going to answer your question. I'm going to complete the answer is move to you. About almost three years ago. And did and I also remember speaking to someone who has a friend who's like, you know, it's important that you understand what kind of company you want to build. And I knew that I was asking myself is rightly going to be a top consultancy and I want to have 100 people I want at a time. There was a time I was thinking then, then I was like, no, actually, I don't do that because you're going to be managing 100 people, employing people to manage, and you lose the agility and nimbleness of a boutique tourism practice, which is what we are. So I made a decision that we would never be more than five people within the business. Five is easy enough to manage, but then we have a network of experts and consultants that we work with. So if we do need additional resources, we bring them in. We also started our graduate training program so we can get new graduates, so we can get new graduates from the universities. They comment on the interns, incoming intern with us. We have good relationships with them in Lagos and Ibadan so they can come and intern with us. We can also get new talent so we can develop. So I can still teach right tourism, and then I can also mentor, then some tourism groups, etc.. So my point was once, once I was able to plot that on a, you know, on a sheet of paper and that was a, that was a plotting, I really plotted, I was able to then say, okay, I don't need to be on the office all the time. And Covid has shown us we don't. You know, before Covid, we weren't always at the office. 9 to 5. We're working core hours of 10 to 3, where you could be wherever during the other time so that you're not also in rush hour in traffic. And so designing what my company life would be and what the company was going to look like took a lot of pushing back because, again, this capitalist maximalist philosophy that we all adopt is bigger, bigger, bigger. If you did ten clients this year was the 20 next. If you did 20, they say no, the tree stops somewhere and then takes time to either dip in its roots or to just rest or the leaf fall. You know, there's a cycle in nature. So how do we bring them? And that's, you know, biomimicry in a way. But how do we bring that into how this business is designed? And so that's that's kind of where we are. That's what we do. That's how we work, that's how we operate. And so that also allows us to focus on our clients. I mean, sometimes we have a lot of clients, but also we say no, like at the moment we can't take on any work till March next year. We can't. So it also helps us to. And what what that has done tech well and this is the importance of having faith in yourself. We now have better quality clients. We say no when Mala is more. We have confidence that we can say no. The team has time to dream mentally. You're not constantly going from project to project. So there was a time we were just projecting, right? And a lot of our work is repeat work now. People we've worked with before coming back five years, they said, oh, how do you did our tourism masterplan? We want you to help us check again or add, you know, so that also gives us so much joy. And we also tell clients if a client says, I don't want to do a hotel, I want to do a resort, go and visit the sites. I'm like, don't do here. And then like, you make more money by telling us to do it because you're going to then consult on the feasibility. And I'm like, yes, we will make more money doing that. But it's unethical because we have to be responsible and we have to make sure that your business is going to have the best legs that it can. And so I think we have been able to get to this place of respect in the industry and also supporting. So now where we are as a business is we're now supporting other smaller businesses, other people that are coming up. We're supporting them either with our network, with our projects, because I think it's important that, yes, I've not reached the peak of where I want to reach, but you can't with your reach the time before you help others along, because others also help us and look. And so business I would say, is good, but good in a way that I don't have the goal of being the next Elon Musk or being the next world. Like, I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to live a good life, trying to keep the people that I employ happy, pay them well, pay them above market rate, and yeah, and make sure that life is joyful and and we got that. We got that. I love that I think that is absolutely beautiful. What can we the end in mind. And just deciding that, you know what, this is the kind of life I want to live and you defining what success looks like for you. Otherwise you would have been doing the same thing that were doing 9 to 5, which is fulfilling other people's dreams. Right? Which is or or living living by somebody else's design. Somebody think that? No, grow up, get a good degree, get a good job and retire there. And that's somebody else's blueprint. But even in running your own business, it sounds like you created your own blueprint. Like, no, this is actually how I want to function. And I think that is that is actually quite commendable. And I love what you said about the Train Stops somewhere. It really does. And that's I think that's something that irks me in, in the corporate world this year. Oh, our target is this amount of, I don't know, money in terms of revenue. And then all of a sudden next year we just increase it by 15% y based on what? Just because like when does the end? When does it stop? You didn't increase the staff size. You did not add more offerings. It's just oh, because we did 100 million this year, let's do 150 next year. What's like that makes no sense. And that's the beauty of you running your own company. You can decide that. No, this is where the tree stops. But I have a question for you, though. I want to push the boundaries a little bit. I do agree that this capital, this mindset of more and more and more for no reason makes no sense, however, is a life where you could have more, you could be the Elon Musk of tourism and still have a beautiful, balanced life. Or do you think that those things don't exist? Well, first of all, I don't want to be the Elon Musk of anything. We can get another example. Michelle Obama. You know, Michelle Obama inspires me because she's is also one of those people that has really defined what life means for her. But closer to home is someone that is my cousin, the National. I look at Lola and I see Lola. Lola is the person that wrote The Secret Lives of His Wives, and also the convener of the Ikea festival, and she inspires me because she shows that you and she also runs with the bookstore and cafe. She shows that you can find your center, you can have that center. You don't have to publish 200 books. You don't have to. It doesn't have to constantly be more, but you can again optimize and get as much from something right as as possible. And I like that. I really like that. It's like circular economy thinking, you know, we get an orange, you can drink the orange, you can use the peel, you can use the leaves, you can use a bar. It's like what it is. So it's spending more time in quality stuff because you know that it can morph into so much more. That is for me, the dream I this work I'm doing for rightly, you know, I'm doing a job that I don't ever want to retire. Of course I will hand over. So now we're thinking about, you know, I have manager as I have people that are leading more projects. What is something that I can do forever or till I die? I can do for free because I love it. Right? And and for me, what she does listening. For me, I'm very privileged. I feel very lucky. I feel very lucky that I wake up and I'm doing what I love. And then when I go on holiday, right, I'm traveling, I'm touring, I'm exploring. It's like my passion, my purpose, my. Don't get me wrong, I don't like every part of the work I do. Just as my accountant, because we I'm a chartered accountant, but I don't judge. I don't I mean, I have an accountant, you know, I have to do accountant stuff. We have to do the budgeting, the planning, the, you know, where you have to manage people. We have a consultant, but we have to manage people also if they want. You have to do research also. That way you just have to manage clients because right now we have to manage, you know, quite, quite a bit of senior pro, you know, clients. Right. And so my point is not every part of the work is going to be sexy every single time. But you have to be able to know that this is just part of part of what life is. And so my vision honestly is kept. Well, when I'm 80, I'll have a full head of afro. It'll be gray. I will still be. Maybe I'll have a small boutique hotel in Vancouver around the world. We'll do farm to table explore. You know, I'm still going to be doing something within this space, you know? And people would run red clay and red clay can die after I die. I don't need red clay to continue after I die. I'm okay with red clay. Being a small company that miss my needs, inspires others for the time. It's. Yeah, the conversations can end. They don't have to be eternal. So that whole thing about the legacy is not when I'm dead. My legacy is people. I mean, my legacy is what I'm doing, people I'm interacting with here now. So I also don't. But I had to rework that with my coach. Right. So it's not about this constant I must be big, big, big I must be. But that doesn't mean that you're not going to also have good things in life. I like traveling, I like to live well. I like, you know, but it's that finding your center, knowing what what does it mean for you to live well? Is it the Hermes bag, or is he going by Lakeside and being the. Is it going to the theater or traveling to see your friend? You know, it's just you have to define that. But what does really unburden my mind from my business and remove the pressure of growth? Well, that sense of I'm not trying to build a company that will last 100 years. Nothing wrong with that. But small companies come and go all the time. If my business can take care of me, okay, I'm okay. And. But the knowledge shouldn't waste. So now I'm writing. We're writing so that we can publish while doing focus groups. We're disseminating. So we're writing books. We're doing so at least people can learn from our experience. And that's okay. Wow, this is. So refreshing. This is even refreshing, even for me, because I think even I have some condition in there where, oh, maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm just I'm just wired differently because I definitely don't like the whole just more and more and more. It's just I'm just saying sometimes I imagine things I have dreams and visions in, like, why? Why like that's so massive. That's crazy. But it's really refreshing to just hear you say this like, no, I don't need my business to so outlive me. It can die with me and you're. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think. Who said that? Every business needs to have the vision of we are going to change the world. You know, you can actually change the pockets of the world that you're in and actually make that difference. And I also love what you said about your legacy is not the LLC, your PLC, or whatever that you leave behind, right? It's it's the impact that you have on people as you come, as you go along the way in life. It's it's how you make people feel because people that people will never forget that, you know, it's it's the the interns that are learning from you and you don't know what you're doing for them now. And maybe they're seeing you and they're like, oh my gosh, this person can do this. Maybe I can do this too. When they help themselves, they own, they help their family. It's like, it's just that's the impact, that's the legacy. And I think that's just like, wow, that's that's very refreshing. And it feels so liberating to like just hearing you talk about it saying, oh yeah, like, calm down. It's okay. Enjoy life. They love being. There. You love it. You know, don't be a human. Do you mind? What? Walker? We going to. Yeah. You are so right. I, I like, you know, a friend of mine asked me if you weeks ago. He said, oh, what's your what's your life purpose? I'll say the purpose of my life is to live. And and then he said, really? I said, yeah, I just want to live. And then he was like, okay, I don't think that fully characterized. They'll say it sounds like, you know what massage should sound like. And I said, okay, let me break it down for you. My purpose in this life is to live a life of freedom, and that looks like me doing what I want to do with my life, with whomever I want to do it wherever I want to do it, whenever I want to do it. He was like, I don't. That's still doesn't encapsulate. I said it does for me. And then I asked him, what is your purpose? Said, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure, I mean, oh no, no, no, yours and you are trying to project on me the fact I say, you want to hear me say something like, oh, I'm going to build this company that is going to do this, and I'm going to have this conglomerate of, I don't care about that. If I find a way, something. That. Allows me to live the kind of life that I want to live, I'm good, man. I'm. Oh, I'm all right. So this is this is so refreshing. I do hear your story and your journey has been so inspiring. I honestly community I'm so proud of you as well. Like, like, my gosh, like you're amazing. Like you are so, so I mean I know. Yeah. Thank you I know that's that is this is my life. I want that glamorous. But honestly, just those of us that hearing these, it's not our life, it's we are hearing it and we're learning from it. And it's it's very, very inspiring. Honestly, I thank you so much. This this has been so good. So, so good. One more thing though. You mentioned something about how you could have just trusted yourself at some point and just gone full time in just developing your consultancy. Well, that was when you went to do some work for labs. So and this is advice that I would like for you to give the for my I dream of that time before she took the thing. That is because this is going to help other people who are toeing the line like Alana. Sure. Like what would you tell that for my age now, knowing what you know today, now. I have to say, I'm grateful for the experiences I've had and I wouldn't be who I am without these experiences. They've all helped me, but I would have told my agent before when I was finishing I'm sorry, because that's when I doubted myself. And it's that sense of don't doubt yourself. I love my post-doc in Edinburgh, but it was a detour, and that detour is what led me to labs, which was it is. So I've tasted the rice and chicken, I to say, and also what's up but forget quickly was poked by someone who go easy. You follow them like if I don't. So it's also always remembering that I think that's what I would have told myself. To be more confident, to have more faith. I'm grateful where I am now, but I wonder sometimes of where I would have been if I spent all my energy and focus on my on on building red clay and but even without staying on my energy and focus, I've been able to build it. But just removing because again, the fact that you can do many things doesn't mean you should do many things. And I think that we can fall into that trap, particularly in Nigeria, where everyone will say they are doing what I'm doing. I have this, I have no, no, no. The laser focus is powerful simply because of its focus. And so it's important that one retains focus. Now, it doesn't mean you can't get inside business if or get a side contract. If you're, you know, don't say because you are trying to be your, you know, run your business and you're not getting work, you're going to not look for ways to survive, right? But you must always find come back to yourself. And so what I would tell for my agent is you have everything you need and you have all it takes. Just keep persevering. And and it wasn't like there was no work. I was just again, it was just I was just enjoying because I also enjoy teaching, I love teaching, I see that labs for so long because I love teaching, I, I when I moved in Abuja, I would fly from Abuja to teach, right? Because I loved it. And so they were like, oh, can you come for me? But then I had to be like, no, it's distracting. So we started doing virtual, but even then I'm like, no, not because I don't like what they're doing again. So what I'm telling people is that it doesn't mean that you don't enjoy it. It doesn't mean you don't like it, doesn't mean you don't believe in that vision. Well, you have to ask yourself if it is your vision for you, does it align? And if it's not, you have to be confident enough to say no. You have you committed enough to leave. And so that's really the the path that I would say that I where the spaces I have detoured are pieces I have doubted my, my ability to thrive. And what has happened when I've made the move is that life has shown me that it will always hold me. Wow, that is a beautiful place and I love it. Thank you so much. And this is. No, this is this is awesome. I didn't have anything to add to that. I let people chew on that one and take whatever you want to take from that. Well, thank you so much. How can people find you want to learn more about what you do. Or I'm not really active on social media. I'm not as active as my comms consultant would like me to be, but I'm on LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is probably the best. Yeah, LinkedIn. I have Instagram as well, but LinkedIn is all right. Okay. We'll link we'll. Link that in the show notes. Then we'll link that to your profile to your LinkedIn profile. All right. Awesome. Thank you so much. I do. Thanks for tuning in to grow with Keppel. If this episode sparked something for you, subscribe, share it with a friend and keep growing.